Firearms

[Jayce Ithil]

I have to bring it up, because they are getting mentioned in the dream. This dream has people from the supposed future in it, and one such person left several months ago after they had a run in with the dream owner because they were carrying a modern shotgun. So, since it seems these are creeping into RP here again, I would like to ask what Exactly constitutes a firearm in our setting and what are the reasonable limitations?

[James Crovax Darkarma]

Muzzle loading matchlocks, arquebus, Gonne (AKA Hand cannons, the original). Non-rifled. 3 'preps' to reload.

Any guns from the 'future' would immediately become useless pieces of junk. This includes flintlocks, cartridge rifles ('Trap Door' guns, break actions, etc)

[Eliel]

Correction, flintlocks are acceptable.

Any firearm developed before 1610.  Magical or technological advancements that would fit in with our available magical technology are allowed, but yeah.. preps required to load aim shoot or aim shoot. No one shots. And older firearms had a chance of failure. Even magically enhanced ones should.

Anything beyond our current technological understanding is ICly made null by a device that was made earlier this year.

[Zelanze]

I'm glad you posted that, Wheel Lock is actually what Zel uses and i'm surprised how often I have to explain what it is.

[Rivers]

what about things more dnd like like the double shot hand crossbow?

[Rolan]

If by hand crossbow you mean like.. the pistol sized crossbows you see in movies or with the Diablo III Demon Hunter, they weren't really a thing.

Simply put, they're too small for the bowstring to impart the required energy for a hand-crossbow to be a practical weapon. Also you need two hands to reload it anyway. You might as well just take the full-size version.

Pistol-crossbows have been made in modern times with modern string technologies, but mostly as curiosities and toys. Sorta dangerous, not reliably deadly ENOUGH to warrant ever being a first line of defense.

Keep in mind, this is just speaking to historicity and real-world practicality. IMO there should be at least a little room for rule-of-cool. (For example, one could make a pistol/hand crossbow viable by dipping the darts in poison - might not penetrate super far, buuut)

[Rolan]

This surprised me, so I decided to see if I could suss some things out, mostly for the sake of my own curiosity.

The top picture is a modern display piece made by a company called Denix, said to have been based on a historical original but actually not. They just say it is in order to sell it. In fact, they're probably mixing up elements of the stonebow below it.

Stonebows were primarily used for hunting small game birds.

There was something called a 'ballestrino' in 16th century Italy and Spain but it worked substantially differently. No pistol grip, but an internal cocking mechanism that pulls back the string as you turn the handle.

An artisan named Leo Todeschini who does working period reproductions reproduced one, and concluded it would be ineffective as a weapon.

http://www.todsstuff.co.uk/crossbows/crossbows-types.htm

His reproduction, assessment, and a link to a video of the reproduction bow in action are at the very bottom of the above page.

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Above is a ballestrino from the Metropolitan museum of art. They were apparently quite rare and this example contains a number of unique elements.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly7bU_3EkH0

A broader treatment of the subject of small crossbows, wrist crossbows, and the physics of crossbows in general by Skallagrim.

This is not me trying to discourage anyone from going that route, but to provide background on the real-world particulars, such as they are.

[Render]

Yeah, wrist crossbows especially wouldn't be able to hurl anything with a lot of force...unless magic is involved. Which...hey. This is a fantasy setting. If you want your character to have a magic crossbow that works despite it being wrist-sized? Do it like Nike. Just remember anything that negates a magic field will make it effectively a toy.

[Metz]

I was told by someone, rather firmly, that my Emma (a 5'6" tall German female) wouldn't be able to use firearms because "femmes and short furres cant." I'm glad to see that people understand this is simply not the case, and a myriad of firearms existed even before the industrial revolution; even moreso, since the weapons were handmade and didn't have any sort of blueprint or interchangeable parts..
Although I might mention that the tech level being at 1610 allows for rifles as well! Rifling was officially invented by Germans (muahaha) in 1520, although their use was primarily for hunting. They were used by hunters since they took longer to reload, and required a rod. Smoothbores also had a rod, but one could often literally drop the "ball" down the barrel, whereas the rifle's ball would require it be jammed in.
This faster, uniform reload is why armies didn't switch to rifles until the 19th century. Before then, of course, only specific units had rifles. I might also note that they didn't blow up as often as people think, the "It's just as likely to kill the user as the guy they're aiming at." saying is a little tiring; though they did have many misfires if the flash pan wasn't properly filled or the mechanism didn't make enough of a spark. Plus, much agreeance with Squall, they very inaccurate by today's standards, and were best used in volleyfire; smoothbores, that is. But rifles made Guerilla warfare (which is like hunting, but for people) possible, although their accuracy was still very short-range.

[Xyomara]

I will make a stressed note that rifling, while it STARTED to be worked on in the 15th century (Circa 1400's to 1530's), Rifled Barrels was still in developmental stages. It was not accurate. It was not common place. Many people had never heard of the science of it yet. It was not fully worked on until the MID to LATE 16th century, which Etla is still considered late 15th to very early 16th (the middle to near end of the Renaissance Period), so the technology is still considered in it's infancy. Mid to Late 16th century was when true rifling began to roll out, but it was still not a common thing until the late 19th century.

Unless a character is jumping through the rift from the future where rifling -was- an everyday thing, the technology did not exist in a manner that it was available in every household, every smithy, or in every armory. So if a rifle breaks, the ability to reforge the barrel with accurate rifling grooves will likely not be possible unless the rifles owner knows how to bore the barrel themselves.

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But seriously, all the knowledge you have. Keep it coming!

[Metz]

I will make a stressed note that rifling, while it STARTED to be worked on in the 15th century (Circa 1400's to 1530's), Rifled Barrels was still in developmental stages. It was not accurate. It was not common place. Many people had never heard of the science of it yet. It was not fully worked on until the MID to LATE 16th century, which Etla is still considered late 15th to very early 16th (the middle to near end of the Renaissance Period), so the technology is still considered in it's infancy. Mid to Late 16th century was when true rifling began to roll out, but it was still not a common thing until the late 19th century.

Unless a character is jumping through the rift from the future where rifling -was- an everyday thing, the technology did not exist in a manner that it was available in every household, every smithy, or in every armory. So if a rifle breaks, the ability to reforge the barrel with accurate rifling grooves will likely not be possible unless the rifles owner knows how to bore the barrel themselves.

What if such a character were from the area of the world were rifling was prominent? It took a ridiculously long time for the English and French to accept rifles, but several German princes seemed to have been making rifleman units as part of their small armies in the early to mid 1600s. I think hunting rifles in the American colonies were brought over by German settlers who had intermingled with the English back when England was pals with several of the smaller states, although that's more than 100 years later than the date we're talking about.
"No rifling" is an okay rule, but rifles come with their own pros and cons of being more accurate, but taking longer to load. Although I guess if guns aren't very commonplace in Etla, a gunner would be making their own ammunition in any case; and at the short ranges that any battles would take place in Etla, it wouldn't actually give an advantage to have a rifle.
Oh! Someone else was showing me a firearm called the "Bandersnatch" which appeared to be a breech-loading break-action thing with canister-cartridges? That person is also gone, though, so I assume that's just not a thing?

[Metz]

Yeah, they would be nastier than a crossbow or bow just based off of possible fragmentation of the lead ball, and more massive tissue damage from the force with which they hit and being a blunt lead ball and all. But that's both rifles and smooth bore, and rifles would give no real advantage of range, just accuracy.
There were most certainly rifles in the American revolution within the militia units of both sides; and "Ferguson's Rifles" as well. But I think we're saying the same thing and getting caught up on small details and/or semantics.
In any case, my original point was that I was told (more like hassled, nothing official) that my character couldn't use guns cuz she's a girl. So I just wanted to say that firearms of the period were not uniform because there hadn't been an industrial revolution, and so it makes sens that she could (plus average height and diet wasn't so great back then, either, so I doubt all the soldiers using them were hulks). Also that non-uniformity is a con of guns. Since that's also why Militia units in the 18th century couldn't repair their rifles easily, because they had come from certain craftsmen who couldn't mass-produce repair parts.

[James Crovax Darkarma]

I will make a stressed note that rifling, while it STARTED to be worked on in the 15th century (Circa 1400's to 1530's), Rifled Barrels was still in developmental stages. It was not accurate. It was not common place. Many people had never heard of the science of it yet. It was not fully worked on until the MID to LATE 16th century, which Etla is still considered late 15th to very early 16th (the middle to near end of the Renaissance Period), so the technology is still considered in it's infancy. Mid to Late 16th century was when true rifling began to roll out, but it was still not a common thing until the late 19th century.

Unless a character is jumping through the rift from the future where rifling -was- an everyday thing, the technology did not exist in a manner that it was available in every household, every smithy, or in every armory. So if a rifle breaks, the ability to reforge the barrel with accurate rifling grooves will likely not be possible unless the rifles owner knows how to bore the barrel themselves.

It's also argued that early rifling wasn't meant to improve accuracy. It was to help to keep the barrel clear. The various detritus that would gather in the barrel (Metal filings, unburned powder, grime, dirt, etc) would gather in the grooves, and therefore would keep the guns from basically blowing up in the user's hands. It was later realized that if they put enough twists into the grooves they made the ball spin, and therefore, made it more accurate.

[Metz]

There was Lagertha, who, by the testimony of the Dane Saxo Grammaticus, 'She was a skilled Amazon, who, though a maiden, had the courage of a man and fought in front among the bravest..'

So in short, hell yes woman can fight and fire guns. xD

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Yes, we will get along well >=3

[Lionheart]

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