The following is a transcript of the philosophy class that was held on Saturday!
Ugly :
Alright, well, I think this is as many people as we're going to get.
Before we start, know there are no wrong answers, no wrong positions, no wrong ideas. The point of this class is to think for yourself and formulate answers for yourself, but also be surrounded by ideas from others, some that may conflict with your own.
Welcome everyone, to a lesson on combat philosophy and stratagy. I intend to go over a number of subjects, such as nuance, morality, and psychology, but the primary subject of this lesson will be a single concept : Might Makes Right." There was a brief pause as he let that settle in for a second before he asked the opening question for the night
So, to start off this lesson, I want everyone to describe to me what they think when they hear that term and how they feel about the concept of 'might makes right'." [e]"
Tails :
Annoyance
Champ :
Big guys beat up people!
Shovels :
Strongest makes the rules
Big Bad :
Thing is, it dosent.. well, not all the time. Sometimes it can make things worse, others it can be good.. I.. think?
Tough Guy :
The strong get stronger and the weak become food to facilitate their rise. Food, in this case, meaning anything from literal food to acting as servants. Nature adheres to that principle, and so should we.
Amazon :
If you're mighty, you're on your right to use it during a war whatever it might be.
Ugly to Big Bad :
Well, Big Bad, what do you think it means, more so than do you think it is true or not. Whether it is a reality, can be debated, but what is it that concept means to you when you hear it?
Ugly :
Might makes right is a complex concept and may not be as simple as it seems initially. This is largely due to nuance around what might is and the concept of morality concerning what is right.
One view, as many brought up, on 'might makes right' is the ability to use raw, naked force to get whatever you want. This could be the destruction of your enemy, taking what you want, or silencing those who disagree with you. As long as you possess superior force, the outcome of your behavior is 'right' or moral. Because you are stronger.
However, if you kill or steal from a person in pursuit of that sense of right, and a society that disagrees with your actions destroys or apprehends you for your behavior, could you consider your previous actions an example of might?
Was your, potentially fatal, weakness in your ability to conceive the consequences for your actions, and therefor you were both weak and unjust in your actions?
In first half of these examples, we could consider that might makes right is simply the ability to use violence to solve your problems or force your morality on others. As the defeated can not disagree, nor do they decide how history is writen. This is the 'law of the jungle' or 'might IS right' definition of 'might makes right'. It is the idea that the strong deserve to prosper, and the weak deserve to fail. Morality can be preserved in the idea that weakness is merely a burden on the world and the only way to secure the future is for the strongest to prosper.
In the second half of these examples, we realize that society has might as well and a society that decides right from wrong as a collective is mightier than any one being, no matter how weak each part.
In this latter scenario might is not simply physical force, though in the end it is physical force that enforces the morality. The perception of right and wrong is what calls a society of people to act and form strong communities, thus becoming mighty. In this form of might, it is ones ability to affect societies perception of right and wrong that is the source of might. This is the 'right makes might' form of 'might makes right' as a society collects ideas on right and wrong and then enforces those ideals.
So, what do you think? Which seems like the moral version of 'might makes right' to you? Which seems the most accurate... which do you identify with and why?" [e]"
Tough Guy :
Both are correct. While society defines right and wrong and by relation holds much power through sheer numbers, it is also a fact that society can be changed. You need look no further than history.
Societies-- entire civilizations rise and fall like the changing of the seasons. All it takes for the `mighty` to become garbage is a sufficiently large uprising of people. Strength of arms becomes more important than societal norms when those situations arise."
Champ :
If might is what makes up what is right as a society, does that mean that we will think something's right, and then we've got might, but someone um, on the opposite side, what they think is right to them, so that's their might...
Tails :
I agree... the one who seems more appealing, has enough money, or is the most manipulative is going to be the purveyor of a society's morality. It is neither right or wrong. It is what nature is. Wrong and right are simply in the eyes of the beholder. For instance, most would claim me to be evil, deceptive, manipulative, or uncaring, but I am a necessary part to keep the idealism of what is 'good' but in my society, I am not as 'evil' as I could be... I could be degreeably worse."
Big Bad :
Might will never make right. Violance is never the answer no matter the situation.
Amazon :
Yeah, I agree with you Rand... When it comes to moral and ethic, there are things I can't really see myself doing it even if I have the power to do it.
But sometimes violence is the only way to solve things.
Tails :
Violence is fun
Ugly to Champ :
Within those societies, what they identify as right, could be considered might. Divinity, for instance, could give people a perspective of might. Or a sense of patriatism or jingoism could be an inward perception of might. However, we're not necessarly discussing if a society or individual believes they are mighty, but rather how you percieve the concept of might makes right
Tails :
They don't call me Vindictive just to be cute... clearly 'might makes right' to me."
Tough Guy to Champ:
My perception is a very literal one. The strong dictate history, not the weak. Whether it be through intelligence, strength of arms, or the very preferable mixture of both, those in power should always be able to back up their words with force. Every single individual that excels should be forced to do so on merit, not some asinine birthright that they did nothing to earn
And if someone is too weak to make it on their own? They should be left to their fate. We should not burden ourselves with carrying the worthless on our backs.
Champ to Tough Guy :
So strength doesn't have to be fighting strength? It can be in other things?"
But if strength doesn't mean physical strength, why would you leave someone to their fate if they are weak? What if they're strong in other ways?
Tails to Champ :
Perhaps you should have him define what he deems worthless or weakness?
Tough Guy :
Strength is many things. Intelligence, will, brute force, agility, skill, etc. Even wisdom could be considered a strength. Those that lack a particular strength or useful attribute can gain one if they're willing to apply themselves.
The truly worthless are those that do not work towards betterment. Those people are refuse, fit only to toil away in whatever menial task they found for themselves until their candle finally burns out.
Champ to Tough Guy : What gives anyone else the right to judge if someone else is refuse or not? Who gets left behind or not?"
Tails to Champ :
What gives you the right to judge someone if they are right or wrong in a trial then?"
Big Bad :
No one gets left behind if I have anything to say about it. I was once told that if we focus on our weakness's we can turn them into strenghts. Experance, experance gives someone the right to to judge another on a certian area of things."
Tails :
And if what is 'right' in one culture is wrong in another, that person still deserves to be punished?"
Tough Guy : Isn't it obvious?
It's all subjective. It varies by society, though that does not prevent us all from having our own outlooks. Mine just happens to be that people should make something of themselves. Don't have a skill? Weak but want to be strong? Work on it. We all have the potential to improve ourselves.
Tough Guy to Tails :
That is usually how it works. If an act deemed appropriate by one culture is performed whilst dwelling with another, odds are you will be punished. In that instance, might and right go hand in hand; sheer numbers decide one and serve as the other.
Tough Guy to Champ :
I give myself the right to make that determination. I have free will -- I can choose what I do and do not agree with."
Ugly :
Now, to understand the practical applications of this sort of philosophical discussion. I will discuss two, though there are more, and they are both psychological
The first, is for personal mental health. A general point on philosophy for warriors is having a code of ethics or belief structure that can help you cope with the harsh and violent path you have chosen to walk on. Life for a warrior can be exciting and fulfilling, but can also be painful. Filled with failures and regrets. If you survive long in this life, you will have mistakes that will haunt you. You will feel their weight in your heart and in your guts. When you feel like this, focusing on your code, can help you survive. It can carry you through any internal turmoil, mental or emotional, if you believe hard enough. Whether your code is rooted in your own personal strength or the desire to fight for your allies or just to see what you perceive as good done in the world.
The second, is the concept of understanding morality. Now, many find morality useless, or don't believe in its existence. This is a philosophy class, so I will not apply my opinion to that matter. However, we live in a world where people each have their own perception of morality, and this is an undeniable fact. This morality can effect every day decisions for these people. Philosophy is important for understanding that morality... and thus understanding others. Including, but not limted to, your allies and your enemies. Understanding yourself, your allies, and your enemies is paramount to a warrior's survival and success. Know if a selfish decision will make you a pariah. If a sacrifice will make you a hero. Do you strike fear in your enemy to protect yourself. Or, do you show mercy and make him an ally in the future.
Understanding how those around you view the concept of 'might' and the concept of 'right' can be vital to your every day actions as well as being successful in battle for these reasons.
What applications of understanding other's viewpoints on this do you think can help you in dealing with others? With society? How do you feel your own beliefs in might and right will help you? Feel free to discuss these ideas for as long as you'd like." Thus, ended his lecture, and all that was left was for everyone to discuss things however they pleased.
Amazon :
If you know yourself and your enemy, you'll win every battle.
Ugly to Amazon : Exactly, but how does one go about knowing their enemy? And, how does one go about knowing themself. You are as likely to hide secrets, truths about yourself, from yourself as the enemy is to hide truths about themselves, from you. Philosophy, and more importantly, the conflict of alternate philosphies, can breed introspection.
Ugly to Big Bad :
And, you could use a little introspection yourself, Big Bad.
Big Bad to Ugly :
Whats that ment to meant?
Well it could be interesting so I wont say no.
Ugly to Big Bad :
This is a class on philosophy, perhaps I want you to come to your own conclusions on what it means, hah. But, perhaps I am making an attempt for you to notice that you wish to learn how to fight, so you can protect your 'sis'. Yet, you believe violence solves nothing. Your actions and goals seem to betray your sentiments. Which is your true feelings? Or... is there a nuance there that you are leaving out when you describe your overall feelings?
Amazon to Ugly :
To know your enemy is the hardest part... Be it on how he acts in the battlefield and specially on their personality and morality... But if they have a large story of their deeds and habits or maybe a simple background information and find a connection of their background and why they're acting this or that way, we can get a better idea of what we're dealing with.
Ugly to Amazon :
Sometimes, knowing your enemy is hard. However, do you have nothing that you hide? Something you not only refuse to admit to others, but also yourself? A weakness or a struggle? You don't have to tell me, of course, but being able to admit these things, to yourself at least, is important. Because sometimes being too stubborn or defiant of a reality about yourself, can lead to your demise.
Big Bad to Ugly :
I truly hate violence and have never really been much if any sort of fan of it. I do my best to keep my distance from it but this or that always comes up and Im forced into fighting. If I had the choice I wouldn't, but I know this world is full of people who will do all they can to cause you and those you care for harm..
So whats left for me to do but fight?..
Ugly to Big Bad : Well, that's up for you to decide.